Recruitment Down Under: The APSCo Australia Podcast
Welcome to Recruitment Down Under: The APSCo Australia Podcast. We’re the podcast for the Australian recruitment market, sharing anecdotes, interviews and ideas from the recruitment industry's best and brightest. Join us for regular episodes where our guests discuss the topics that affect you and your recruitment business.
Recruitment Down Under: The APSCo Australia Podcast
Building better recruiters: APSCo's new Professional Development initiative
🎙️ Welcome to Recruitment Down Under – brought to you by APSCo Australia.
In this episode, we're diving into The Complete Recruiter – a brand-new training program designed specifically for recruitment professionals.
You’ll hear from Russell Webb of Claverdon Consulting and Sophie Robertson from Younique Coaching – two experts who’ve brought their decades of experience together to create an 8-part series exclusively for APSCo members aimed at boosting capability, consistency, and confidence across the industry.
We’ll unpack what’s in the program, who it’s for, and how it supports both new consultants and experienced recruiters looking to refresh their skills. Plus, we explore some key themes – like the differences between temp and perm desks, the challenges of dual desking, and how mindset plays a huge role in recruitment success.
Whether you’re a team leader, a business owner, or a recruiter yourself – this is an episode you won’t want to miss.
Good afternoon everybody. You all know me, I'm Lesley. I'm the Managing Director of EBSC Australia. This one's a little bit different today and I'm glad that you've all tuned in to join us. We have, as many of you will obviously be aware, um announced the the rollout of a program called the complete um recruiter training program. Um, courtesy of these two wonderful people that I have the um the pleasure of being in company of today russell webb, um from clavidon consulting, and sophie robertson, very um well-known name, from unique coaching these good people have afforded their time to pull together, alongside Apps Co, a program of eight modules that we will release, module by module, every two weeks for our members.
Speaker 1:This is a program that is completely part of your membership. Part of your membership. It's designed to appeal or give benefit to, and some rigor around processes, time management and the various elements of the recruitment cycle and process to everybody that may be new to recruitment, but also those consultants that might be 18 months, two years in and need that refresher or that reminder of how to structure their day and what is going to get the most productivity out of their desk. So today we want to have this as very much a conversation around what that program looks like. Let you hear a little bit more about the two people behind it and obviously dig into their style and, if you want, ask some questions. As usual, the floor is open for questions.
Speaker 1:Before we start, I do want to explain that professional development, I think, is possibly one of the things that I've been most focused on developing for APSCO members and something that we've tiptoed around and we haven't necessarily offered in any depth. Given the current market, given the feedback that we've had from members, particularly around people and performance being their number one priority, we thought this was not only timely but something that we could do to give back to industry was not only timely, but something that we could do to give back to industry, to uphold the profession as a whole and make our contribution to the standards that our market should be offering clients and candidates and, obviously, the businesses that they represent. So we hope you will enjoy it. We will be obviously looking to put together a feedback mechanism and we really hope that you're going to engage. Put your consultants through it, it's unlimited, make use of it and tell us what you think.
Speaker 1:But what I want to do is obviously start. I'm going to ask Sophie and Russell to give you a little bit of background about themselves before we start, and then we're going to have a bit more conversation and, as I said, feel free to ask questions. So, sophie, I might just ask you to give our audience here today a little bit more context.
Speaker 2:I know most of them know you, but they don't, maybe two or three, uh, people on the thing, on the call yeah so my name is Sophie Robertson.
Speaker 2:Uh, I worked in recruitment directly for 18 years here in Sydney, australia. I started as a consultant and had various positions, been general manager. My last job, which I loved absolutely, was a business development director. And then, since 2007, I've been supporting recruitment businesses in various ways through my company, unique Coaching. I guess I do it broadly in three ways. One is I provide group trainings or workshops et cetera, and then I also do one-on-one coaching of people at various levels. I think at the moment I've probably got about I shouldn't really know the exact number, but I'm going to say 14 that I coach one-on-one at various stages. And then, thirdly, I work as an advisor, I guess, to recruitment businesses.
Speaker 2:I am obsessed with certain things which the people that know me will know. I'm obsessed with best practice. So, like Leslie said about raising the standard, even when I was a very junior consultant, what I didn't like was when people said, oh, recruitment, you know when you go and meet people. So since then I've had this thing that I wanted to raise the standard of our industry. So this, I think, is a great way of doing it. Yeah, so I can come into businesses review processes to look at what best practice will look like for them and also mitigate risk. I'm also very risk averse on your behalf, so I think broadly that's me right.
Speaker 1:Thanks, sophie russell hi there.
Speaker 3:So, um, yeah, I've been in the recruitment industry in my 30th year. Uh, right now, um, and you know, I started off um industrial temps was my division, the proper blue collar. So a phenomenal way to really get involved in the industry and learn what the trials and tribulations have been let down on a regular basis we're all about. And then expanded, expanded that into more commercial um semi-skilled skilled workers, and then ended up running offices for larger organizations such as manpower and that was before.
Speaker 3:I had a personal epiphany which was my desire and my passion was all about helping people develop their skills, and one sunny Monday morning I decided right, that's what I'm going to do. So I applied for and got a wonderful job with a company called S3 the S3 group some of you may know it um over in the UK where I was at that point, and, um, I became a performance coach, so literally coaching one-to-one with recruiters, helping them to improve their skills, understanding how to spell recruitment, etc. Um, mainly obviously in the tech and the engineering space. And over the five, six years that I was working with S3, developed my skills in coaching, then added training to my repertoire and built training programs, et cetera, for S3. The brand I was working with, which was Huxley, and then that expanded into the other brands as well. And when the GFC occurred 2008, 2009, at that point I'd already moved to Amsterdam because it was a way of life. I could actually gain more experience and understanding from foreign markets at that point, so it's something I'm quite passionate about. I ended up living in Amsterdam for six years. At that point I'd changed business. Jfc gave me a few good, good favours of directing my career for me and worked for a local company, grew that company from about 13 people to 150 and retention being over 80, etc. Which I think we can all agree of. Retention is very much guided from training, development as well. People are getting trained, developed. They tend to stick around.
Speaker 3:And then my desire to move to australia kicked in. A few changes my personal life. I got married, had kids, um, and australia was my, my dream. And I joined a company called evolution, where that was um. The deal was moved back to the uk for two years help establish a training development department there, which I did, and then that enabled me to move with the company to Australia, um, of which then I was operations director for that business. So L&D was part of my remit, but there's lots of other parts of my role.
Speaker 3:And then, in 2023, a set of circumstances were raised where where my passion could be relived really and um, I left that business to form my own business called Clavidant Consulting, which similar um, me and Sophieie work, work on this quite well. We're similar, we have similar services, but definitely not the same and we operate in different ways. But, yes, lots and lots of coaching at strategic level. Um, leadership development programs, um, I run a particular training program for that consultant programs, but also lots and lots and lots of one-on-one coaching um, so clavidon consulting. The name, um coaching, so Clavidon Consulting. The name that was actually Clavidon Road was the road I was born in, so it's all about a rebirth thing where you didn't know that, sophie, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:No, I was wondering why it was called that.
Speaker 3:Someone said to me you've got to think of a name for a company. It can't be Russell Web Training, okay. So yeah, it happened in that. So it's a rebirth thing which actually, uh, enables me to actually live my days in with a smile on my face thank you, that's excellent.
Speaker 1:So, as you can see, uh, you're in very good hands here with these two people. Lots of knowledge, um, that they're going to impart through this program before we, we, we talk about, I guess, what people can expect. Um, we had a conversation about this, I think, several weeks ago, and also yesterday. Um, which is really about, before anybody, any leader or manager, considers putting their teams through the program, perhaps the first question, or the first, uh, the starting point is is have they got the right people in the right roles, running the right desks? And I know that both of you are quite passionate about this one. I thought it would be a good place to start, so I'm going to ask Sophie to kick off. Oh, me again.
Speaker 2:I was going to say you're going to do something controversial and you want to start with me. Are you sure about this?
Speaker 1:There you go, you see, maybe it says something about how I support you.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think that's a really important topic because in recruitment, let's face it, we're not great at recruiting for ourselves right, traditionally, which is kind of like an irony, because we're really good at recruiting for other people.
Speaker 2:But I think it's also because lots of people, in my view, humble view is they don't quite understand the differences maybe between the roles. And I mean something that you can imagine how I feel about that being a temp specialist, some people call me temp queen, which is weird, but is when they say, oh, this person isn't going so well in perm Shall, I put them in temp and I'm like, are you insane? Like, because for me that's not where you put the weakest right and they're completely different skills. So I'm also interested to hear what Russell thinks about them skills-wise, what the differences are. But for me they're very clearly different jobs, different skill sets, and if we can manage to recruit the right people into the right area, then they will do better and the businesses will do better and make more money right. So I think we need to get that piece right.
Speaker 3:I think I used this analogy recently that you know, if you visualise a company as a bus and it's got the big banner and the big marketing logos on the outside of that bus, and then in that bus you've got someone driving that bus which hopefully would be a leader-led environment, um, and that then scenarios that you, you add people into that bus, into that structure, and you put people on the bus that you want to be on the bus, and then from time to time you tend to realize maybe they're on the wrong seat. So it's a case of analyzing what those seats are and what those roles are and defining those roles and what the purpose and the outcome relate relation for that, for that particular role, and then making sure that the person's attributes fit into that category. So you know, sophie and I talk a lot about permanent contract and the differences recruitment is. Recruitment is an easy thing to say, so people doing recruitment, the process, are definitely similar in in any form of life. But the way you approach that job from different angles is, um, is is something we have to really consider when we're interviewing people. So companies sometimes uh, recruit in an order of a sequence.
Speaker 3:If, like I, want to hire two perm consultants, two contractors or that specific desk, or or sometimes people go well, I want a bunch of rookies and I'll skill them up and then in three months time I'll decide what. What desk to put them on horses for courses can be different, but I think, as sophie alludes to, there are definitely different skill sets and attributes that we have to consider. That, you know, as I say, is that seat that's available? Have we got the right person sitting in it? I think one of the major positives is, if you've got people with the right work ethic, with the right approach and the right commitment to customer satisfaction and experience, then that's okay. Then sometimes it does need a couple of seats to work out where they're best like, but, but those attributes are absolutely essential. And I think I'm kicking into the first part of the process that Sophie will be undertaking, which is very much related to mindset. If we have the right mindset, we can work with that. If they haven't, we probably can't. Hopefully you'd agree with that, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:I mean, when I get asked to do BD workshops, the first 90 minutes is all about the mindset, because I say to the leaders, if we can get the mindset right, the rest is actually just process.
Speaker 2:Of course we need a solid process, right, but it is just process. And I guess the reason why I really love that Leslie wanted to do this and asked us to do this is, you know what I think for a $27 billion industry that we are in Australia, we don't need to make it up anymore, like. I don't know how you started, russell, but when I started, basically it's kind of like sink or swim, make it up. Some will survive, some won't, and luckily we don't do that across the board now, but some might still do that and I don't think it's always because they want to do that. But I think it's more like well, how do we train people? What do we need to train them in? What do they need to know?
Speaker 2:And unfortunately, our industry can be very reactive. So if we talk about the post COVID, boom, right. You know that buffet of jobs that I don't think we'll ever see it similar again. But when we had that buffet, people were like, okay, we just let's do all 180. And I'm not being, you know, critical, I'm just stating a fact here that I think, uh is what happened. And they're like as long as we have delivery people, it's's all fine.
Speaker 2:But for those of us who have been around a little while, we know that it's always cyclical. So I was kind of standing, I was like the boring auntie in the sidelines, going BD, bd, and they're like we don't need to, we don't need to. And then what happened? Now it's like, oh God, we need BD, right. So I don't know, I feel like Russell, you're probably the same as me I feel like we're the canary in the coal mine, because as soon as I have two companies ask me the same thing, I know that's what's happening out there, but honestly, we could have foreseen this right. So, in terms of training, I think what happens is whatever the market needs, that's what they get training in, but then they're not match fit for the period that comes after, and I mean we can't call them 360 if they don't have the 360 skills.
Speaker 3:Really, I think I agree. I think it was a phenomenal problem to have. You know, we need lots and lots of people to come into business to be able to do that process driven part of the role, of filling the role. Um, and from a training and development perspective, if you've got the people, the right mindset and the right attributes to train, that process is a lot easier because it's just follow the guidelines. Follow the guidelines, make sure you qualify against a job, an excellent job spec, and take people through and the process of submitting CVs to jobs into the interview.
Speaker 3:Management part of the role obviously is the fun part. I always call it the fun part because you're you're very close to the outcome. But we have to do that really, really well and with the right people, the right attributes. That was good, but as sophie alluded to, I think I'll echo what you say. In the last six months, definitely the number one request for my services has been I've got a great bunch of people. They've been service delivery for a while now and I realize they can't. I haven't got enough jobs for them to service anymore. Can we now actually teach them how to do BD? And again, we've got that right seat, right person, are they on the right seat? But the seat is now vacant and has been vacant for a little while. So skills gaps is a learning development catchphrase. Let's identify the skills gaps. But it's just true, and I think people have learned that part of the job of delivery and they've learned it really, really well. But you can't deliver to jobs that don't exist.
Speaker 3:So those relationships which you know it's been, it always surprised me when COVID hit oh, you've got to build relationships with your clients. It's like, well, that started a long time ago, a long long time ago. It wasn't a new thing at that point. Um, so creating transformational relationships rather than transactional um became more apparent. But potentially, clients looked at it as being more transactional. Going I just need my roles filled. How much, whatever? Get it filled. And now those negotiations are a damn sigh harder to deal with and go a lot earlier into the process and due diligence is applied at much higher volumes. Now, from a client perspective, going who am I working with? Do I like them?
Speaker 3:you know I, I relationships go through a no like and trust phase.
Speaker 3:I use I use that analogy a lot, by the way um, and that likability part.
Speaker 3:Whereas before it's like yeah, you look all good and you've got some candidates for me, so I like you, it's now actually do I want to work with this person?
Speaker 3:Are they capable of building a relationship with me and understanding my business? So there's a lot more work from a training development area in there to actually help people to learn skills communication skills, such as asking the right questions, because if you have to ask the right question, you tend to get the right answer but also listening, obviously that empathic listening as well, and just actually helping to understand what that problem actually is or the solution that you're providing. Sorry, the problem you're understanding, so that the solution you provide is actually accurate. And and I think that for me in the last six months has been that that skills gap that we're trying to close and I think, if we can and people are eager to do that and they're brave, which is a huge part of the job if they're brave enough to actually have a go get it wrong a few times, it's okay, um, but then obviously, the more times you practice something, the better you get, and I think that's um.
Speaker 3:That's starting to happen now and I think we're getting some successes in the business right now yeah, I want to go back a little bit.
Speaker 1:When we talked about or, Sophie, you were talking about those skills for temp and perm being quite different For those people that might be running dual desks. Can it work? Have you seen it work? Where do you both sit on this one?
Speaker 2:Ask Russell first.
Speaker 3:I think it's been a natural occurrence during a tougher market in the last two years, two and a half years, where if you had a consultant at that point which I think traditionally mostly were pretty much perm or contract, and obviously as tougher times happened a few cost-cutting exercises or natural sort of wastage within the industry where people just couldn't you know, couldn't take those difficult times, then it was almost so. There's a free desk, like my contract compatriot has left the business. There's's a contract job, come through, says the perm consultant, don't worry, I'll work it. And then that perm consultant works it like a perm job. And I think you know let's not get Sophie started yet. She can have a turn in a second.
Speaker 2:Yes, don't start yet, just stop it.
Speaker 3:That does create that again skills gap scenario that it's it's difficult to manage those two processes. So I just think it was a natural occurrence of why it happened. I don't think anyone's gone out there and purposefully said everyone needs to be dual desk. I think everyone who's been in the recruitment industry a while knows that there is two different sets of skills and you just literally have to switch caps when you're talking to perm or talking to contracts and clients and candidates. But I think the where we're at now again we let's, let's think positively. You know the green shoots are being watered and we're in a market where we'll that things are moving, we're in traction, we're actually moving forwards. For the first time, it feels that way. Um, so we can. We have to look to the future and we have to think about let's, let's imagine our workplace in six months time from here. Because we can, we don't have to look to the future and we have to think about let's, let's, let's imagine our workplace in six months time from here because we can.
Speaker 3:We don't have to really look for more further forward than that. New financial years are great in australia, where it's a case of lots of things happen and that first that month of july, I think, ducks become very much in a row. But I think companies are already sorting that now, and I think more so than ever before, and I think if we're then giving those dual desk people that opportunity to fill both kind of roles, I think just the time and the stack and the process it takes to actually do that is going to be detrimental. So I think if companies are choosing what should I do my dual desk people? I would do it now. I would think, right, okay, let's separate. Now that consultant might feel, oh, but hold on, you're taking away some of our business.
Speaker 3:Well, actually, that might be exactly what you need to be successful and turn that 300k biller into a 400k bill, or that 500k bill into a 750 bill, because you're actually doing the thing, the same thing over and over again with the same kind of people. Guess what you get better at it then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know about you, sophie, god, I'm going back a long time now, but when I first started, I worked in recruitment for about five years and I started on a temp desk and I loved the pace and it was great and, for someone with a short attention span like me, brilliant. When I had to go up home, I just knew it wasn't me. I got frustrated, I was too impatient and I felt like I was trying to push too hard. So I believe and I may be wrong that the two are two different types of people, the different characteristics in someone that gets them up and moving in the morning and excited about their job. So I'm keen to hear what you think, sophie.
Speaker 2:Definitely completely different. Just as an example, I had two clients last week ask me to interview people for them and one was in Melbourne. So I said to the client because obviously I would have to do it online the interview and I said, was he a fast walker? And he said, I beg your pardon. I said, was he a fast walker when you interviewed him? And he said, oh, I didn't really notice.
Speaker 2:Now when I say this to clients right, I've said this to so many clients and they go, what that can't be a thing. And then they kind of go a bit quiet and then they think back to every temple contract recruiter that they've worked with that was actually really good. And they go. You know what it's true. So how I describe it is, they're like the energizer bunny, you know that just keeps going, going, going, but likes that pace. I'm not saying the ones that do perm can't do that pace, but they don't like it and I think you have to like it, you know. So that's an important thing for me is the fast walking. And I even had a client who said to me they hired three rookies and they invited me into the office and I was riding down the lift, I was going to ride down the lift with these three young women and he just whispered to me before I got in the lift. He said just tell me who's the fastest walker. And he said because we have to now decide where they're going. So I did, and then a couple of them they're just dawdling along on this. You know, I was like, okay, get out of my way. So I said okay, to me it's quite clear actually who it should be.
Speaker 2:But so, yes, I think being quick and like being quick, but also that thing about being a really strong business developer, I think for Templin Contract they're actually a strongest salespeople. And the reason is this is that when people have a perm vacancy, right, they kind of know they have a perm vacancy because, I don't know, they're replacing someone that's leaving or they're increasing headcount. But for temp it's not enough to ring up and say, do you need a temp? Because sometimes the clients don't know that a temp or contract person is actually the solution to that problem. So they have to be like a good business developer and a good uh analyzer, if that's if that's the word like a with good, strong analytical skills to actually look at the business problem and then come up with a solution and say, well, actually have you thought about this?
Speaker 2:Like I've done that heaps during my time when I was doing it and clients would say to me never even thought of it, never even occurred to us that we could solve the problem that way. So it's a different type of thing and I think it has to be someone that enjoys that, which is why if you have someone that's in perm and not doing well, please do not put them in tent. This is not a holding station. Okay, like they have to love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is not a holding station. Okay, like they have to love it. Yeah, yeah, good point. Anything else to add on that Russell?
Speaker 3:or are you nodding there? I love the walking and I've definitely viewed it in that way before, like how fast they walk, how, how quickly do they operate? Yeah, basically, conversations, so like quick-witted, those kind of things are all little telltale signs or the thinker. You know, it's each as their virtue. And I think that you mentioned impatience and I think it's been apparent for me that, yes, the impatient person, they want it now, they want it yesterday, would perhaps go down that route. But I think, even from a perm perspective, impatience is still a really, really good virtue because we want that, that, that process to to happen as quickly as possible. Um, you know, procrastination kills opportunity, otherwise known as time kills deals. Then it's sort of you know that the longer it takes, the more difficult it is. And I think that's very apparent in the market now where we're trying to educate our client base, that just because you want to do your due diligence, you can still do it quickly, and I think that that hurts. But with a do your due diligence, you can still do it quickly and I think that hurts. But with a perm consultant, I think impatience is still a virtue, but you have to be patient with that impatience. You have to pick your right time, you have to influence in a certain way to actually ensure that the outcome is the focus and the missed opportunities are more apparent. So I think there's, you know. Yes, I think we can all agree. There are very much different attributes for that permanent contract. Very much, you know, visible, very quickly visible. But I think we can definitely develop skills along those two routes.
Speaker 3:With the client side of things that building client relationships, contractors the solution is pretty apparent um after time. But sometimes they don't realize that solution is there. Perm is blatant for the, for the world to see that, yeah, I need a vacancy. As I said, you know, you only recruit people on a permanent basis for two reasons. One is replacement. The second is growth, um, and people tend to have a plan for that um, so the recruiter has to adapt, they have to adapt their mindset.
Speaker 3:And, going back to the original question, if they're dual desking, that's just switching hats and like that's hard. I just find that hard. We have to. You know, sophia, I know, does a lot of. She concentrates, she's the specialist, the, the temp queen sorry, I'll say as well, um, but she does know how to do perm recruitment. Let's be really clear. You know she understands how the perm works, she knows the differences between the two and I think, as trainers, when you're educating people and business owners, when you're educating people predominantly, you've gone one way or the other with. There's a gap again that needs closing to enable skill set to be appropriate to where those companies are going actually russell.
Speaker 2:Thank you for reminding me about the original question, which was about dual desking. Let me answer that one. I told you not to start me on this topic, right? So dual desking, yes, it can be done. People do it. Is it the best for the recruitment business? Definitely not.
Speaker 2:List, and you're either specialist perm recruiter or you're specialist temp and contract recruiter and, like russell said, the thing about getting them to change hats, it's not fair to them. So what I've seen consultants do and I'm not blaming them because that's the way it's set up is should I work on this perm job that's going to pay 25 grand in perm fee, or should I work on this temp contract job that's going to give me 500 in in margin? So they go to the big cake, right, they want the cake now and you can't blame them. So what most recruiters that do dual desk say to me is you know what, if just I can have a handful of contractors and do perm, I'm sitting on a sweet deal and we know that's true, right, but is it the best for the business? Definitely not.
Speaker 2:If a recruitment company wants to make serious money, then they need to be split Because, like Russell said earlier, then people are doing the same thing all the time and they get really good at that, right? Yeah, so jewel desk, I don't love it and often, when people call me, often, often, they say we've been trying to build contract for a while, it's not working for us. The first question I ask them, very first question, is are your consultants doing a dual desk? And if they say yes, I'm like, well, we've got to have a conversation about that. And the other thing I ask them is how are you measuring the growth? Because if you're measuring a GP, oh, we're going to also have to have a conversation about that. So there are some things that you need to focus on specifically. If you want to grow the temp contract, that's different to if you're growing perm Okay, great.
Speaker 1:Okay, I want to talk a little bit about the program, obviously, and what people can expect. So, as I said earlier, there's eight modules. There's seven to complete, unless you are doing both temp and perm. We have a dedicated module for temp and for perm, and Sophie and Russell have split the workload and will be delivering a dedicated module for each. So, for each those modules, as I said, they'll be 45 minutes long and we will have exam-type quiz at the end that we would like you to pass at 100%. There will be several goes on that, but obviously we want this to be outcome driven. We want to see that people have absorbed the information and we can then report back to managers and let them know how people have fared.
Speaker 1:In an ideal world, we would like students to complete the entire programme, but in what order and how you do them is entirely up to you. Um, there will be a certificate for anyone that completes the entire program to show that they have they have got that, um, in loose terms qualifications. So, um, as I said, they're released. I think the first one is mid april and then every two weeks from there, we will release a new module and they'll all be stored on our website for you to download. So once the programme is complete it'll be there and everyone can access that and put students through as they wish. And, as I said earlier, feedback's really important, so we want to be able to make sure that the programme's got that mechanism so that we can hear how people have fared, what they thought and if there's any room for us to improve or alter what we're doing.
Speaker 1:And I can push Sophie and Russell for even more work. But I think what I really like both of you to sort of, I guess, tell me, given the fact that you know obviously I think we're all on the same page about what we want this programme to deliver. What would you like people to get out of it? What do you feel that you want to leave people with? Russell, I'm going to start with you.
Speaker 3:I think that you, you know the complete recruiter is a title we came up with because you know it's definitely isn't a you do eight modules and then I've completed recruitment. Yeah, I've done it. Ticket, move on. You know that's definitely not the case and I think it aligns with what we already know, that people who are going to be involved in this course probably may be fresh to the industry, um, or, as as leslie alluded to, that 18 to 24 month recruiter, and I think the biggest area that I I um encounter in my travels is people get into a rut of doing it a certain way and maybe start to cut corners and with that level of experience, it's probably not the right corners to cut because you get more experience. Yes, there are definitely corners to be cut, but there's experience tells you which ones will be effective in in your time management specifically. So I think that where this is really playing for me is those recruiters who've got into habits not always great habits, um, and it's reminding you what you do already know, and I think that for me, is one of three outcomes that people tend to have when they encounter training, when they've had a bit of experience. One it's like yes, thanks for reminding me. I know what to do and I'm doing it. So a bit of reassurance that you're doing it right.
Speaker 3:The second category is very much people going. I know I should be doing that, but I'm definitely not doing it effectively enough or or enough times. And then, thirdly, there'll be a nugget or two in there that's oh, that's new, that's a different way of looking at it. I've no a phrase, a comment, just different things that you know, the uh, the few decades of experience between myself and sofa, that having a locker, I think there's going to be one or two little things that come out for that for people. I think predominantly it can be.
Speaker 3:The second category of you've reminded me what I do, I should be doing, but I'm just not doing it enough, I'm not doing it well enough. So therefore, let's just see in the take a step backwards and go. We're just increasing efficiencies and efficiencies create deals. They, they turn those no's into yeses and we're getting more opportunities. The confidence then comes through with I'm doing it more. Therefore, guess what? You get better at it and the experience that you give to clients and candidates becomes better and it's just a complete roller. You know, roll on of um positive outcomes because you're getting better, you feel better, you're getting confident, you do deals, you do deals, you become more confident, et cetera. So I think that's where it's really playing to, from my perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, sophie. Well, I think, leslie, you actually gave Russell and I a little bit of a challenge, because what Leslie said to us was what is it that you feel recruiters need to know? And I mean Russell and I both have more than three decades each right. So it's kind of like, oh my God, you want me to put 30 years experience into four modules. I can't do that. So we really had quite a Russell and I had a bit of a sparring session where we were like, okay, what do they need to know?
Speaker 2:So I guess what I'm hoping and I don't even want to cap it at 12 to 18 months, because I do sometimes when I do training in-house for companies is sometimes you'll have recruiters that may be doing five years that maybe didn't have proper training. They're not the ones that are going to say necessarily to the manager I don't know how to do this. So I think this way, hopefully we can pick up and plug the gaps that there might have been. Right, if there are gaps, because I don't know that training still is super consistent in a lot of companies, I think you know.
Speaker 2:Sure, the really big ones that have their own L&D people probably might do a better job of it, but yeah, so what I'm hoping they get is after our spying sessions, is that they get a bit of an all-round skill set and that we've plugged any gaps that they may have had. And, like Russell said, sometimes it's just a nugget, like I was talking to two perm recruiters they both fabulous recruiters been doing for about eight years and I just gave them one sentence to change and they said immediately they got more placements. So it can be something like that, right, like the nugget yeah, and that consistency.
Speaker 1:I think it's really interesting because it's you know, you've got teams, said. You know some are coming from different companies who might have been taught a different way. Some are coming in with you know no experience, bringing everyone up to a comparable like not standard, but you're all having a comparable process and practice and you know that consistency is probably quite key for a lot of companies where they are growing or they've got multiple teams.
Speaker 3:I think one thing I witness from my own businesses I've worked in, let alone just in the role I am now more in an advisory capacity that there's a lot of recruiters that go through the first year of recruitment, which is just catch your breath, right, just catch your breath and don't know. And yet there's lots of inquisitive. If you have an inquisitive nature you'll start winning, but at the end of that first year there's a level of competency that is acceptable to go into year two. But sometimes what I encounter there's a lot of people that keep repeating year one, and they're not, they're not prepared to learn the next level because they're okay, they're successful.
Speaker 3:We I think we're coming back to that 180 consultant here again but they're doing deals, they're making making ends meet, they've got good commissions, life is great. So there's that lack of priority, really, of going well. How do I get better? I'm not saying everybody, far from it, far from it but I think some of the people that can get to that three year and four year category and they're still really good billers and, on paper, an exceptional recruiter, but let's say they decide to change job and they move, and they move to another opportunity because they want a different environment or, you know, circumstantial. And just imagine being in that interview process. What have you done for the last three years? Well, exactly the same thing as I did in my first year. And it's like, well, well, how can I then rely on a four-year-old recruiter who wants then, obviously, um, an increased salary, and why wouldn't they? Well, how can I justify that when all you're going to do is come in and do the thing that my recruiters do at year two and you've got two years more experience?
Speaker 3:so I think there's very much an element I've seen that a lot in over the time and I think the the humility required is for people to actually put their hand up and go yeah, that's me, yeah, I need to develop my skills. I'd actually need to get back out and back on the tools and do those things I feel uncomfortable doing. And I think we all know one of the phrases get comfortable being uncomfortable. And that's where the learning and the magic happens, and I think that's probably where Sophie and I really have a passion to do what we do.
Speaker 3:And if only for so long is that you're looking for what we call a light bulb moment, where people love that. Oh my goodness, why have I not done this for the last two years? And that change is like that makes my. I'm sure you're the same. So if it makes my day, my week, my month, my quarter, yeah, it's, it's in their eyes, right, yeah those people reacting in that way, then it makes our life amazing and hopefully that's because we've made those recruiters realize I can do.
Speaker 2:I can do this differently and I can do it better it's a really good point what you're saying, um, and you know the the highest billers that I've encountered. You know the ones that are million dollar billers, year after year after year. They're usually the ones with the most humility and the biggest amount of curiosity and they keep saying tell me more, tell me more, tell me more, because they're smart enough to know there is more. I once came across a recruiter who had been in it for 18 months and he said no, I know everything and I very rarely say this.
Speaker 2:But I actually said to his boss, worried about him, and he said why I said well, it's just when you think you know everything, right, it's not so good because you're learning then literally stops. There's no curiosity, and that's not to the benefit of their clients, you know, and their candidates. So fantastic.
Speaker 1:Um. Speaking of curiosity, uh, does anyone have questions? Uh, you've got any questions about um, any anything that you've heard today, or the program? Um, let's just put them in the chat or the q a? Um, does it look like we do? Which? Um? We are almost on time, so, um, I'm going to give it another minute. If anyone's anything they want to ask, they can obviously also contact myself or the team to find out. Um and um ask anything that they they wish or inquire about the? Uh, the modules. Obviously, as I said, you'll see them coming through on email. Um, it's very quiet out there, so I'm hoping that means they're all. Oh, here we go.
Speaker 1:Great session, very insightful. Thanks, vicky. Good, we're glad you enjoyed it. I hope you're going to put some people through this and we get some feedback from you. I just want to say a huge thank you, not just on behalf of APSCO and everyone that attended here, but the entire profession. What you're doing, I think, is incredible and really pertinent at this current time in our market, when I think we need to do, certainly from an association's point of view, as much as we can to, as I said, support our members, but also uphold the standards of the profession. We do have a question, thank you, from Laura. How are you both finding the challenges with AI impacting recruitment? It's info overload and a huge distraction. Yeah, that's a good point, john.
Speaker 3:It's a very good point, and how are we handling it? I think we're all doing the same thing.
Speaker 1:Is anyone?
Speaker 3:handling it. There's little action is how I see it. There's very little right. We are now training our strategy. As of tomorrow, we're going to go down this road and get AI agents walking all over our processes. I think it's exciting. Let's be really clear about this. It's very, very exciting and I think at a conference last week, which many people were, I'm sure that there was a great little phrase that came out of it.
Speaker 3:Ai is going to be useful to take away those five-second and those five minute tasks, and I think that is essential for recruiters to become more efficient in an industry where people make emotionally based decisions on both sides of the client and the candidate spectrum. So I think adding in AI at the beginning of the process is going to be an absolute game changer, a world changer for us. But I'm also a huge advocate of the fact of we're still not going to be able to sell. Ai will find it difficult to sell in this process. Recruiters' jobs are to sell, so can AI help us to identify the right people to talk to um and create very relevant and attractive outreach? Yes, definitely. 100 can definitely point us in the direction and getting rid of all the noise, and I think that is what it's doing already, with people just using it in, in in basic terms, but there's nothing replaces that skilled sales recruiter to get a candidate excited by a role or a client excited with regards to a candidate, um, I think that that, because that's evident, a lot of the people I'm talking to the industry feel the same way. So there's a lot of noise and great comment, um, and we have to accommodate it into our business, not begrudgingly that sound begrudgingly, it's definitely not, but I think there is a. It's an opportunity, a huge opportunity. But from what I see, a lot of people are going.
Speaker 3:Let's just let things play out a little bit further. It's not a standardised industry. You know. There's a lot of things got to happen in the background and I think it's happening. I'm sure, like many people, I'm educating myself as much as I can about it different webinars, points of view, comments, blogs, et cetera and I think you, just as ever, anything new this is probably the most innovative change in the recruitment landscape ever in the whole of the history of the industry. Then I think we've got to embrace it with open eyes, open ears and I think in a period of time I'm not going to put a time limit on it in a period of time. We'll just be a standard. We'll just have standard practice where AI is helping us become more effective in our job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. So I'd like to make a comment here, because I did a little speaking gig in Brisbane and I asked the room who's using AI. Nearly every hand went up. But it's also generational, right, so younger people. But one business owner. She said you know what? We hadn't floated for a while because of the buffet. We didn't need to, and now we needed to learn to float. And they were able to go to AI and just say here are some CVs, give us some lines about how to float these people. And it did. And she said the team could just get on the phone and do that and they were winning right.
Speaker 2:There was another one that said to me he recruits in government and he said there was a very specific skill set which I've now forgotten because I didn't know what it was, and he said he used AI to track that skill set down, placed it. So it's definitely out there. I think it is, in some ways, exciting. Well, it is exciting if you use it right, and I think this is a good time for our course, because what Russell and I very much are going to be talking about is the human element of recruitment. So I think they can complement each other, but I do have this one thing that I want to say, because it's been on my mind quite a lot and I've said it to Leslie and I had a conversation about this is throughout my career I've been asked do you think job boards will replace recruiters?
Speaker 2:Do you think this? Will you know all these different things? And I've said no way AI recruiters. Do you think this? Will you know all these different things? I've said no way ai. Maybe for the purely transactional recruiter. So if you were transactional post-covid, we'll let that one go through to the keep up, because that was just how it was right. You have to make hay while the sun shines and all that. But if there was ever an argument for becoming relationship-based recruiter, it's now. So I don't want to alarm people, but at the same time I do want to sound alarm because I don't think you'll survive if you're just transactional. Yeah, because you can be replaced, but if you are human and you can build a relationship, they can't replace that yet. Right, we don't not yet. So I think that's.
Speaker 1:I think that's my take. I think, I mean, we've talked about this and we did consider how we might integrate AI into this course and actually we decided to take a step back because this course isn't about replacing those tasks from the get-go, because I think your consultants still need to have an understanding of why we're doing those tasks from the get-go, because I think your consultants still need to have an understanding of why we're doing those tasks and what they mean and what does a good, a good outcome, you know, in relation to that task, look like compared to a sloppy one, um. So I think, um, from APSCO's point of view, we will, at phase two, probably overlay or integrate those guidance notes, documents, tools to help then the recruiters that have got well versed and practiced at the stuff they should be doing consistently. Okay, well, now I've got AI tools to free up my time, but they understand, by freeing up the time, the time that the AI takes away, what am I going to do with it?
Speaker 1:It's not about taking things away. And then you know oh, I don't have to do that anymore. It's oh. That means I can indulge my client much, much more, or I can spend more time having a coffee with you know candidates.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And that that's yeah, yeah, and that high touch as you talk about Sophie, and the human element, I think that really is important, but I think there is an order in which to get it right before we rush into the shiny. Totally it becomes, like you say, John, an even bigger distraction. So we've got a couple of more questions. Edmund's asked how to motivate the team of recruiters to try different methods to source profiles on niche skills rather than following the old monotonous process. I don't know who wants to have a stab at that one, and maybe it's put them through the course and they might there's a long answer there yeah so we, you know, I think searching for niche skills rather than generic skills is is obviously the best.
Speaker 3:What I've always suggested when you're searching for candidates put everything in, put everything into search first. First thing, put everything in and you might come up with three candidates and you get a disappointed recruiter going. Oh no, I've only got three candidates. The likelihood of those three candidates being able to do the job is virtually 100 percent. Now all we have to do is sell to them and increase their interest in the role. Now, obviously, that's potentially a 15 minute task.
Speaker 3:So then you wind it back and it's sort of. Then we that's how I've always encouraged people to source go in with everything and then draw things out that are less of the nice to have, and then you look at a broader base. But I think you know there's what we're looking for and this is really really, really important for me. I don't want recruiters concentrating on finding the most visible candidates. I want them finding the best candidates. So again, I see and quite a habit that I see quite a lot they put up a search and they bring up a 50, 100 candidates, whatever it might be, from their boolean search and then they'll call the first 10 they've got two people that are relatively interested because they've got open to work written all over their linkedin profile and they forward them and go covered that job that's not covered the job it could be candidate number 38 in that list.
Speaker 3:That's actually the perfect candidate because they've got the attributes required for the role, rather than a cv that fits your search. So you don't search for a cv, you say, you search for what people write and I think it's um that's. I don't know if that answers the question. I've learned, but um, I hope that that's anyway where I'm going with that, whether from a from an attraction perspective because we've had limited time.
Speaker 2:Like russell, I agree that it's there's long answers to that question, but just to add to what russell said is whatever you're doing anyone that's ever worked for me will know this that I am just a little bit fanatical about stats is measure, measure, measure. So if you do something, say on LinkedIn outreach, and you use AI or you do something else, measure what you're doing in each place and the results we get from it. Because what happens in recruitment is when we get desperate and we need someone, we try everything and then they're like, oh, face that right. And the next time we try everything, I'm like, oh, face that right. And the next time we try everything.
Speaker 2:And I'm like stop doing that, let's try to work a little bit smarter here right and the magic is when you start to measure, it's like, oh, there's actually trends and I'm going yes, you know, I'm not just making this stuff up right is that you might find you, um, that you get a certain level of person from this method, but you get somebody else from that method. Now, if you can track that, it's going to pay off in the long run. So my thing is be a scientist measure, measure, measure and keep the data, the data is your friend, absolutely.
Speaker 1:One last question from Vicky, which was about clarifying who the course is aimed at. We have some green recruiters who are very excited for it to begin, but would you suggest the more experienced recruiters should also attend um? I know we did mention this earlier and I think you know to your both your points having people that have that experience, go through it and get those reminders, those prompts, those nuggets, as you've mentioned um. I don't know if either of you want to expand on that, but I'd just say I'm just very conscious of time now.
Speaker 3:I'd probably say this is aimed at people who need um, a guide, some guidance. Initially. You know they're a little bit fighting in the dark sort of thing. So definitely aimed at those people. But I think how we want to position it is what we don't want to exclude in any way shape form people from a year, two years, five years, who need that educational reminder of what they could do slightly differently and turn that that key from um being successful to ultra successful. So is it. It's aimed at everyone is the easiest answer. I think. Initially this is aimed at people new, ish, first year maybe, but please, those people that are experienced, it's like, encourage them to attend it. As I say, it's worth that time on a two-weekly basis, 45 minutes of their time to just go. I've got an absolute hurler there. I'm going to put that into my business and it can turn a no into a yes.
Speaker 1:And put your teams together through it. How you engage with it, I think, is entirely up to you, and you could roll it out, as you know, a Friday afternoon session with your team, and it's something that everybody's got that consistency with. Kate's just said this sounds great, even for team leads to go on the journey with their team.
Speaker 2:Perfect comment Absolutely yeah, yeah. Because, then you know what we've said to them, right, and you know what it is that we're trying to do exactly that's exactly right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, we are on time. So I just want to thank um everybody for joining today and I look forward to hearing everybody's feedback once they get stuck into the course. Once again, huge thank you to sophie and russell. Um, again, I can't I can't emphasize how um important this is, I think, for our profession. Um, particularly, as we've said, you know we're we're back to um a tougher market and possibly new conditions for people that haven't recruited in these, these kind of um it's economic environment before. So, uh, can't be a more important time for this program. So big thank you. Thanks everyone. Enjoy your weekend, enjoy the F1 or the noise, no it wasn't.
Speaker 1:Thank you all. Bye, yeah, and look forward to hearing from you all soon.
Speaker 3:Bye-bye, thank you Bye, bye.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to Recruitment Down Under brought to you by APSCO. Join us next time. If it's happening in recruitment in Australia, we'll be talking about it.