Recruitment Down Under: The APSCo Australia Podcast
Welcome to Recruitment Down Under: The APSCo Australia Podcast. We’re the podcast for the Australian recruitment market, sharing anecdotes, interviews and ideas from the recruitment industry's best and brightest. Join us for regular episodes where our guests discuss the topics that affect you and your recruitment business.
Recruitment Down Under: The APSCo Australia Podcast
Episode 3: Deal Makers LIVE from Emerge 2025 - featuring Ged Mason OBE
In this special live edition, we’re joined by Ged Mason OBE, CEO of Morson Group, for a deep dive into what it really means to be a deal maker in today’s recruitment landscape.
From his early days to building a billion-dollar powerhouse, Ged shares how he approaches relationships, opportunities, and big decisions – with the kind of insight you only get from years at the top.
This is a rare and honest conversation with one of the most respected leaders in the business.
Recorded live at Emerge 2025 and hosted by Lesley Horsburgh of APSCo Australia and Paul Masters from Sovereign Private.
We've got a very special session for you now, one that maybe years ago we might have said was a bit risky with technology, but I'm hoping we're all good today. Back in March of this year, paul Masters from Sovereign Private and myself partnered up or Appsco partnered up to launch a podcast series called Dealmakers. The series is delving into the world of mergers and acquisitions, and each month we're talking a different topic around M&A activity, something that Paul and Sovereign Private are very well versed in and have been working across multiple acquisitions for many, many years as long as I've known Paul, which goes back a long way. I might just get Paul to introduce himself before we introduce our guest Over to you.
Speaker 2:Thanks, lesley. Yeah, it's been a pleasure running the Dealmakers podcast. I think it's something in the industry that I've been asked about a fair bit. It's like what are some of the stories from the deals that I've been involved in over the last six or seven years, and Dealmakers brings that to life. We also delve into some of the other international deals that have been done and what makes those deals special. So, if you get a chance, yeah, have a listen to it. It's on the APSCO website. But yeah, thanks Liz.
Speaker 1:So with that I want to introduce our very special guest, especially in more ways than one, but not least because he's joined us all the way from the UK this morning. Jed Mason is OBE is CEO of Mawson Group. Jed, good morning. I know it's 6.15 over there at the moment.
Speaker 3:Yes, good morning Lesley, Good morning Paul Nice to see you. Yeah, likewise. Yeah, I'm used to sort of the different time zones we've got to operate in these days. We've got in our office there, acr. I think Dave Dahmer and Ruth are there from representing us. Good morning to you all and to all your colleagues there. I wish I was there watching the rugby, but I'll say no more on that subject.
Speaker 2:You had to bring it up.
Speaker 3:I had to. I had to get it in early.
Speaker 1:Right, we're going to change the topic.
Speaker 3:Some of my sales charts. Guys are sorting you boys out, I think.
Speaker 1:Jed, you've got a huge career that spans a very long time and has been highly successful. I don't think I could do you justice, so I wanted you to start off by sharing with our audience some highlights of your career, if you don't mind gosh, you didn't ask me to speak.
Speaker 3:You didn't tell me you wanted me to speak about myself. Well, is everyone sitting comfortable for the next two hours? I'll give you a run through. Serve your popcorn now. Listen. I always get a bit embarrassed by it.
Speaker 3:I've been very lucky and fortunate. I was given a start in the business by my father, um. I went to canada working in uh in recruitment and came back and took his business from one branch to where it is today, um, with the look, with the help of many, many good people around me and that's the first thing is always never be frightened of hiring better people than I. That's been my motto, you know, and it's been a great journey. You know. The recruitment business has given a lot to me and my family and to my colleagues, and it's about giving back as much as you take out of it.
Speaker 3:Now, and no, we've grown into um again, it's only vanity. Our revenue line is, uh approaching one and a half billion. Um. We've stuck to our knitting. Um. Stuck to our knitting in terms of. We were quite engineering centric and focused on niche um, and we've moved into more of the STEM subject matter, so strengthened up our tech business. And, yeah, it's grown and we've followed where the market and money is being spent by governments and infrastructure programs. It's basically that Quite UK-centric, took it global, but not necessarily large global. We've set up camp in australia a great country there, us and canada, naturally all english speaking, very similar legislation and compliance, etc. So it's made things a little bit easier in that respect.
Speaker 3:Um, yeah, and, as I say, built a good team 65 branches in the UK as well and, yeah, busy. And on the M&A activity just because it's a subject matter I think you wanted to chat been very acquisitive. I think we've done about 18 acquisitions. Most of the business still has been organic, stepping up in terms of size of deals we've done. Most recent is the pts in america, uh, bringing offices in california, florida and houston, and I think I'd prefer to work in florida or california then be stuck here in manchester. But anyway, there is perks to the job. I will get to visit them. Is that all right? Is that enough time on the yes, it's perfect.
Speaker 3:Into me arses and into sale co-owner of Sail Sharks, and that's it.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. I think that sets the scene very nicely. So we're going to grill you a little bit more, Jed, and talk to you specifically about that M&A and I guess specifically what you look for and I'm going to hand over to Paul for the first question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, let's kick it off with question number one what are the top three qualities you look for in a business when you're acquiring them?
Speaker 3:Yeah, to condense it into three is always difficult, but if I say three subject matters I would really want to drill into is looking at the financial. Obviously, the first number one is the financial stability. You know, is it well run? You know what's the finance, finances and structure of the business. I think for us, though, as a business, we, even though we have sold our business to private equity, we still have a significant stake 40% but we still run it as a family business, always have done when we've been public as well. I've taken it private.
Speaker 3:But so the one other aspect is strong culture, without question very important to us that companies we look for and acquire are similar, um, it's easier to work with, it's easier to integrate and you know it's very hard to define what culture is, how to find to get that understanding. But I think, um, good barometers for me, uh and the team, would be high retention of staff, long term people, good morale, compass as well and values. And you can see a lot now on the public domain, can't you? In terms of how a company operates through the CSR. And then, I guess, third point I would say, is business operational. So, looking at the systems, for us, we've been looking at entering into new markets and new geographies, highly important to have the right company with the right systems and scalable growth and a good, solid management team. So those would be my three things Financial stability, strong culture and the operational side.
Speaker 1:Great, and how do you assess whether a business aligns with the long term vision of the Mawson Group?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we always use a strapline of people first and you know we look for that. We obviously try to get to know. Some of our M&A activity hasn't just been through an IM landing on the desk or through an email. It's been an approach made directly or get to know. And really it's about getting to know the parties and understand what they are aligned to in terms of their vision.
Speaker 3:You know, we're a family rooted ethos so, as I said before, we can look at what the diversity of the business is and what's its inclusion, what's its CSR, standing for its ESG and all the buzzwords. But you can. You can get a feel for an organisation buzzwords, but you can. You can get a feel for an organization, um, and really the key decision makers in the, in country or in the business are they? Are they collaborative, are they transparent and supportive towards an aligned idea that you both share? I mean, we don't profess to know everything. I'm still serving my apprenticeship, so you know sharing good practice, sharing where the vision of the leader wants to take the business as well, so it's not always about aligning it to your cultural things. You know, we can all learn from whatever acquisition I bought has been always been a take. A few takeaways that's great.
Speaker 2:In terms terms of niches or specific sectors, obviously you're in your building construction infrastructure, rail, nuclear defence technology. Where do you see the growth sectors at the moment and what are you targeting in terms of acquisition?
Speaker 3:Yeah, naturally we've followed over the years Our growth has come from a focus rifle approach to the areas where government spend naturally occurs and trying to be ahead of the curve in terms of identifying where those will be. Structure programs uh, that you know, hs2 in the uk we followed and we, you know, strengthened our ability through acquisition to cover all the skill sets from project managers, program directors, all the way through your design skills, your signaling, your track, safety, critical, um. So once we get a foot into what market we really want to be and penetrate, we really grow our own, organic and acquired. And we've done the same in defence. We cover the whole spectrum of skill basis to maintenance of aircraft as well, from build Defence programmes we all know, sadly in the world we're operating in is a massive spend.
Speaker 3:Everyone's governments are increasing their spend there. So we can obviously, sad to say, capitalise on it. But naturally we've got to support it. It's a deterrent more than it's the business we're in. So yeah, we followed those sectors. Power and utilities is massive. Linking renewables into that is a huge market, huge demand. Linking renewables into that is a huge market, huge demand. These are, say, the usage of electric cars, consumptions of data centres and just general population demands. So you know, no prizes for looking at the power and we're active in that market as well and that's probably where we're going to be focusing attention in those areas.
Speaker 1:Jed, I wanted to just jump back. I know you mentioned leadership earlier, but I just want to go back to that point again and maybe ask you what the leadership team of a business you're considering acquiring what? What does good look like? What are you looking for?
Speaker 3:um, yeah, it's a good question. Uh, you know, natural born leaders I always think get into the trenches, the good ones. They don't sit in, they don't sit at the uh, the top of the tree and don't get their hands dirty. So actively understand the business. And you can quite easily, when you meet someone who's uh, the ceo, you and you can quite easily, when you meet someone who's the CEO, you can quite easily, by asking some questions, find out how much they do know and how much they rely and how close they are to the business. And I think you have to be close to the business, because what are we in? We are in a people business. We don't manufacture. So if you're not close to your teams and understand your business, then you know.
Speaker 3:So I'm looking for leaders with that. It's then leaders who seem to have executed well when the chips are down. So we've all seen economic downturns, whether that's financial related or government or et cetera, or inflation. It's how we deal with it. And looking at leaders through those periods for me is always a good barometer. You know how have they maintained the business? Have they just sat back? Have they gone out? And you know, changed some ways and, you know, adapted, so you know the business itself. Leadership will tell you a story about how the business has transformed. And yeah, your market reputation does travel quickly, doesn't it? Bad news first always, but you can always find out about someone's leadership as well.
Speaker 1:Very true.
Speaker 2:And I suppose that leads us on to post-acquisition and the management team post-acquisition, the management team post acquisition. You've made over a dozen acquisitions over the last 10 years. You've seen the good, you've seen the bad. What makes a successful post integration into the Mawson group? What have you seen? What are the aspects that make the difference?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it depends on deal structures. Sometimes, earn-out periods, you have to re-ring fence maybe some of the aspects. You want to leave the teams to it. But I think we've tried to help people through any earn out periods because if you can help grow the business in in that period, you're taking up, taking it over and you're doing the right, making the right decisions. I think again, horses for courses, if you are looking at rebranding, then you want to make sure your branding is complete and it's been well received. You look for the synergies.
Speaker 3:Synergies sometimes are not necessarily what we call as financial, they are more, maybe, business development. So if you get a nice business development win soon after, it gives everyone an uplift, it's a great motivator. You know, and we've had successes when we took over acr with some rpo activity pts. We've just done a one, a managed service, uh, within the first month. So an msp. So they're the great things. They give everyone a lift and a buzz. Um, yeah, making sure you know the goals align and working together. And um, I guess, a million dollar, no services, you know.
Speaker 3:So it's tough when you make an acquisition and you've put your neck out to reasons and rationale for buying. If, if the backward starts to, if the company starts to go backwards, you know so it's key to keep it going and usually working well on a hundred day plan. And you know, people are pride, people has pride involved in any acquisition from both sides. Really they don't want to pass on a company. It's you know, people are pride, people have pride involved in any acquisition from both sides. Really they don't want to pass on a company. It's you know it's home, they find a good home. So, yeah, it's nice to be successful after post. But hey, things happen in the world. We've had, you know, we've bought tech companies and the tech market's dropped. That doesn't mean to say it's going to drop forever. We take a long-term view. We don't need you at React. We don't haste. We're not a company that hires and fires in downturns. You'll see that from us. We wade through it.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that could go on, but that's probably enough yeah, I thought that could go on, but that's probably enough. Have you ever?
Speaker 3:have you ever walked away from a deal and if you have, can you tell us why? Yeah, um, have we ever walked away from a deal? Yes is the answer. Um, usually early doors. You know we don't like to. You know we're not a company that comes and tire kicks. Uh, once we make a commitment and shake our hands, we do get on and complete. We've had one, you know where, through no fault of anyone's, downturn and dropped off a cliff and very heavy into perm. You know we try, and a preference for any M&A for us would always be a big tent book bias. You know, percentage-wise it's long-term. Look, frameworks are important, not to say that perm is. You know, discounting perm is very important and in some markets it's a larger part. So it's also for courses. But, yeah, we've walked away. We've walked away once and actually came back to the table two years later.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, so timing's a factor, then presumably yeah, and we've had it the reverse.
Speaker 3:You know where. Others have walked away from us, really, because they've seen the downturn and they've been trying to chase the ace and it hasn't happened, or they've found something in DD. But usually, yeah, it's not often to be fair and sometimes I'll take a view. You know that, yes, there's a slight downturn in the market. You know it's only temporary and carry on and buy it. Is it a price adjustment? Maybe, and sometimes it hasn't been. I may have shifted it more to earn out and given the opportunity to claw back. So you have to be nimble and flexible if you want to, and that helps when you demonstrate Always in a deal. My father used to say, son, he said make sure when you do a deal, either both parties are happy or both parties are slightly unhappy. Never have one happy and one unhappy.
Speaker 2:Very true, very true. Mainly, I'd say. In more cases it's both parties feel as though they've been done over a little bit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I think that's right, Paul. I think that's it could have got more and should have paid less. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:In terms of financials, which are, you know, one of your Obviously the biggest factors when you're considering an acquisition. What are the key metrics and ratios that you look at?
Speaker 3:And how important is growth in the business and the potential for growth? Yeah, I mean that's highly important, isn't it? You know you don't want to buy a business that stagnates or goes backward. You're buying it for growth. You paid a premium. You know you paid good multiples.
Speaker 3:So is it highly important be close to the senior management accounts and finance and ceos or senior directors, and involve them in sort of, whilst all the process is undertaken is to have regular drumbeats on. You know if it's a temp bias business. You know what are your contractors, starters and finishers. Just very basic barometers, but highly important because people in the room will know that's the one thing you can, without question, judge your growth by. Just by virtue of your net increases per week. You're putting more because your contractor number's going up. You know the revenues will be flowing through at some point. So we look for the basic targets. It's always important to understand if there's any renewals or bids. And perm you know your perm look ahead as well, getting a feel to the business and getting a you know, feel to the pulse of the business. What's the perm outlook looking like ahead, you know, in in the months to come. How healthy is that? So there is barometers that you keep close to and you look for.
Speaker 2:Jed, I think in terms of the dozen or so processes that I've been involved in recently, I would say that Mawson probably is one of the most sophisticated when it comes to operational and financial due diligence. Obviously, you understand the industry very well and you've got a good internal team that undertakes a lot of the DD themselves. You know, I remember one of the things that you raised, which has never been raised in any due diligence processes that I've been involved in, is replacement guarantees, which you know, the I, you know, in terms of Replacement guarantees are never on the balance sheet of businesses, or rarely are they. I don't think I've ever seen a replacement guarantee be put on a balance sheet. It's normally on a spreadsheet somewhere.
Speaker 2:But this was something that I noticed Mawson did look into, and there are a number of other things that you looked into where it really showed a very detailed understanding of the industry and the impacts that certain factors can impact a business. That internal team that obviously you've got in place is extremely experienced. They've been with you a long time. How did you retain that team?
Speaker 2:retain or attain retain they've all been with you since. I don't know, since they were graduates, I think haven't they.
Speaker 3:We've all grown great together and I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's helped us in terms of transactions and own great grades together. And I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think it's helped us, um, you know, in in terms of transactions and, uh, being able to reference point, uh, after, after we've done a deal, um, I think, when we're looking at our next deal, if we can go back to the you know the past and say look, don't take our word for it, see how we operate. You know there is a lot of companies out there will tie a kick, will take you down the road. As soon as they see some bumps in it, they'll pull out and I've, you know, we've seen that on a number of occasions. So, having a good understanding of the business and being close to it rather than leaving it to your advisors, I think it's been great.
Speaker 3:And and I've got to say and a big shout out, my, my anchor man, paul gilmore, cfo, age, been with us 30-odd years. We know how each other thinks. I think we can finish sentences off and having him in the team and then backup squad, you'll see, paul, you represented where we had some battles and you always get the best deal there, sir, some arm wrestling. But our team, I would like to say as well, extends beyond our internal. You know the advisors both from Deloitte, dd thoroughly know what we want to look for straight away. So early flags and early flags and deal with them. You know and that's a message to anyone thinking of selling is highly important to this isn't a plug for you, paul, but it might be to get the right advisors, you know, to handhold you, help you align and prepare um. But yeah, I've been very lucky in that department and they know how we think.
Speaker 1:We know what we want to look for and what's important, um, yeah, that probably leads quite nicely to to my question, which is is more focused on mistakes, and I'm sure over time you might have made a few. So what mistakes do you actively avoid and what have you seen that can go wrong?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we all make mistakes and it's a good learning, isn't it? You learn from each. Just try not to make them again. I think it's more of an evolution. When you do mna, you know you learn from each one and each one brings different learning.
Speaker 3:Um, you know to be involved a bit more with the teams. You know I used to sort of cloak and dagger acquisitions, probably in terms of um, you know, for confidentiality reasons, really made those decisions, ie not to tell anyone and keep it quiet. You know we're under, you are under ndas and no one wants to announce that their business is being sold because it could be damaging if it doesn't happen. But really to involve your key members around you in your business, who you know you've got the trust and integrity to enable them to get involved early is probably not so much a mistake I've done, but certainly something we've moved into. Yeah, you learn a lot from that.
Speaker 3:The other thing is to bring things up front. So if there is red flags, don't just bury them and say, oh, we'll sort that out nearer the time or at the death of a process. You know one of the biggest things I was thinking in any acquisitions, paul, you may may agree or may not, but the sort of it doesn't necessarily happen in all cases, but where you have a debt-free, cash-free basis and you know the lockbox and it's. It's always complicated and to explain that to to everyone and it gets a bit of a bullfight over it sometimes or gets very so. I always say bring everything to the table up front as much as you can and deal with it. You know, understand what likely indemnities and warranties are going to be and chat them through as quickly as possible, rather than you know things get left to the end sometimes.
Speaker 3:You've got to bring that as leader of the process. You've got to bring that as leader of the process. You've got to bring that to the forefront, not let advisors just trickle it along. But yeah, mixed stakes. I think we're doing a bit more into commercial DD than we've done before, rather than thinking, oh, we know it all, we know that sector is actually do it and do we know what the clients think of that company. So probably do a little bit more on commercial DD, more than financial now as well.
Speaker 1:Great, thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So let's go back to growth, because I think it's probably one of the biggest impediments that businesses have had in Australia, particularly over the last couple of years, and I think it's not only an Australian issue, it was a global issue. We had a big spike in 22, post-COVID, 23 was generally sort of a flat-ish year and then 24, we were probably, on average, down a bit. Obviously there are certain sectors that are exceptions, but generally it was down a bit and 25 was probably at 24 levels or slightly up or slightly down. So it's been a bit of a rocky road in terms of growth. And forecasting 26 hasn't, you know, hasn't been easy either. Traditionally in the sector, you know, we've wanted to see growth of at least 10% per year to, you know, to request or ask for a decent multiple on a sale. But that has been challenging.
Speaker 2:More recently and I know that you're looking at acquisitions in Australia and globally and yeah, how do you, I suppose, how important is growth in a business and how do you assess growth when we're at this stage of the economic cycle, both in Australia and globally, where we don't quite know whether things will pick up in FY26. We're hoping in Australia they will, and the signs. You know I think the signs are generally there in Australia that 26 will be a better year than 27. It's certainly not going to be a FY22 bounce a year than 27. It's certainly not going to be a FY22 bounce, but I think it will be better than FY25. And I think 27 and 28 will be good. But you know how do you look at, how do you assess growth and determine whether there really is growth there in a business when you're looking at an acquisition is growth there in a business, when you're looking at an acquisition, yeah, it is important to recognise growth.
Speaker 3:But equally, in the market you're in currently, as you say, post-covid, it was a boom time, wasn't it? Lots of activity puts on false promise. Are we going to be in this cycle for long? I think we're. Uh, I think there's a combination of things happening as well. You know, let's not forget the impact of government legislation or or tax uh we've had in the uk and I, increases. It's just really put the handbrake on uh recruitment activity. And I think, coupled with that, you've got, you know, a step change in tech. So tech enabling us to source and find people. There's going to be a massive change in that space and you know that's going to shake the tree a little bit in recruitment for organisations having access to candidates.
Speaker 3:Recruitment companies are still viable long-term, have a future, without question. Um, because you know, robots and ai can't do the uh, the intimacy of discussions and negotiations, but we have to be aware of that. But growth is important but equally, it's what we can do with it. You know it's not all on the toes of the company. You know we'll look for and take a view if it is going to struggle for a number of years and it's single digit growth, then how can we help? And it's if, if we look at then, overlaying what the potential is in terms of as I go back to the very basics government spend in those areas or or spend, you know, in the public and the private sector as well, then you know the market's there. It's only a matter of time before you turn the tap on and are you in the right place in that sector. That's going to be buoyant.
Speaker 2:Are you doing longer earnouts, Jed? Are you seeing longer earnouts at this stage in the cycle?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that is an option. And even looking at you know, if it tips, a decision for a seller is to say, well, actually do you want to hold some stock as well, you know, do you want to participate in maybe not selling 100%? You know 75% or 80%, so there is different options to consider. I think also, you know, know sellers will understand the market and know they're in for a long haul and you know there's always a should be a reflection of. You can't necessarily ask for a premium like they would in the heydays and it's, you know, the buoyancy. So you have to be realistic to what the multiples are in that respect. Um, and it's really what the seller wants to.
Speaker 3:You know, if he's walking off into the sunset, then I was. Oh, you know, my father always said because I have a property, leave some on the table for somebody else. You know sometimes is the right attitude. I know it's easy to say. I've been a seller as well. So you know, never be greedy on it really. And uh, yeah, if you can extend the earnouts, then you've got the chance to uh, have some recovery opportunity and work together with the, the buyer to maximize that. You know, make sure your buyer is into that and will help you along that way jed, I wanted to go back.
Speaker 1:You mentioned earlier about commercial duty being a little bit more of a focus for you. Um, can you talk us through your approach to acquisition? And you know, is it a blueprint? Is it a case of it's evolving and it has to to shift and adapt? You know, it might be because of economic um circumstances, it might be something else. What does it look like? Or is it different every time?
Speaker 3:And how has it journeyed as you've gone along all these different acquisitions over the years? Yeah, I'd like to say there is sort of a blueprint with the teams that we have. But with Flex you have to be flexible because not every company is alike and there's certain areas in the dd you've got to focus on, some more complicated than others, whether that's operating jurisdictions are complicated and ensuring the compliance in those locations, tax, etc. It will be key then, um, some companies we've bought more contractually committed. Therefore, what's those frameworks? You know, what have you, what have they signed up to? So you might be more focused on the, on the frameworks and contracts of the business and some don't have. It's more you know terms of the agency. So different horses for courses.
Speaker 3:But yeah, you have to think we have now taken it more seriously in terms of actually looking for succession as well, helping the team along. We've got, we've brought on board claire dean, who's an m&a experienced individual. That has definitely helped, helped us, being proactively looking and researching and having fireside chats and then helping with actually not just in DD, what's important? I mean that's one aspect. The real important work starts after an integration and working together and you know what are the 100-day plan type things. So that usually comes out of during DD. There'll be certain points that are raised where you feel we can improve and those improvement processes become work streams to help you get a better business from it. So yeah, there's different things that come along on a transition that you have to look at and approach.
Speaker 2:And Jed, what would you? We've got a lot of recruitment owners sitting in the room now. Not all of them are, obviously, in the sectors that you operate in, but if you could give them one piece of advice in terms of ensuring that they build maximum value within their business for a potential sale at some stage, what would it be? What should they focus?
Speaker 3:on, yeah, yeah, I think. First and foremost, I think you've got to think long and hard about are you ready to sell and what are the drivers you? There's no point in fudging it or leaving it to the death Express. What do you want to do? Is it to spend quality time with your family because you put a shift in and you're well-deserved and it's time for them. Is it to stay with the business and grow it and be excited by that and be part of that with your team? Naturally, you've always got to have good advisors, without question.
Speaker 3:When you're selling it, consider your DD as well. You know whether you want to do vendor or not. Really, you've got to organize your messaging, you know, and don't dress the business just to sell it. I've seen that many times. Keep the business working as natural as it is. You can have discussions about handbacks and one-off costs, but don't try and make your business. Don't paint the horse black and white and think you're going to call it a zebra. If you're in oil and gas and you're oil and gas, you're oil and gas. Don't try and say oh, we, we're, uh, we're, um, we're renewables when you're not. I've seen that happen a lot. And then when you do the digging. So you know, don't dress to sell and be natural. Um, make sure you've got a good story to tell and that there is. You know you do understand that.
Speaker 3:Um, I always say be patient in the process and get to understand what likely areas are going to be looked at. Have plenty of fireside chats as well before you make your mind up as to whether it's right for you to sell or consider selling. You know fireside chats with advisors, but also companies as well, and people who've been through the mill of a sale and m&a activity. Don't be frightened of picking up the phone. You know people ask me many times. I'm happy to share advice freely. Um, as I say, I'm still learning. I might not be the guru, but we've we've done a number of transactions and, um, yeah, I'm happy to share that and there's others equally like that and we're active. I will have to say that we're active in the m&a world. We are a good home. We've got a great team in our australian office uh, dave and rob, and you know the team and john. So, yeah, yeah, that's probably the areas I would say if you were looking as an owner to sell.
Speaker 1:And yeah, Fantastic Love the zebra analogy. We're almost out of time, but I might just see if anyone in the audience has anything they would like to ask Jed, seeing as we've got his company and it is quite a special moment. Yes, okay, carly.
Speaker 4:Hi Jed, thanks for the great, great discussion. What are the typical multiples when you're looking at a business and obviously there's some businesses that are like super, you know perm, you know which is different to contract. But what are the types of rules of thumbs that you see in the industry?
Speaker 3:Yeah, straight to the point. I like that. You could have expected it's always the million dollar question. Yeah, the multiples, I think they vary. I think I mean there's there's there's a number of um releases of information data that comes out about the global uh activity and multiples um. So, yeah, I think before and after tax sometimes the multiples are quoted. So you have to just be careful of that um.
Speaker 3:But generally, you know, the more niche you are, the higher the multiple. The more niche you are and more long-term visibility in terms of long-term framework agreements, the multiple notches up, the more bias towards temp, as I say, is important for more businesses, but a blend of perm as well. So, depending, I mean, we all have seen cycles. So the tech market, for example, was really active and you were seeing, you know 8, nine tens is probably top end of you know, of multiples. You know there is extremes from that. You know where they're really niche and someone will pay. You know there's always a buyer out there who wants that business and you can be lucky and you can, you know, be in the that niche, mary, but tentatively, you know what, what we always look for and what any company, particularly for a public company. I have to look for what. You know what, what's earnings enhancing for them. So if they're trading on a multiple of 10, they can't be buying at 10. You know it's got to be earnings enhancing. So be realistic to that as well. When you're looking at a company, if it's where it's at, um, others might take a view of you know I'll take a longer view, but um, yeah, I mean we've been buying in a range, um, we've been buying distress businesses at three and better businesses at five and up to up. You know, that's kind of where we've sort of pitched at.
Speaker 3:As I say, pts was our most large and it was in that top end range. Yeah, size, scale and what it brings. You know, if it brings the ability to use it as a platform to grow from others and you're the first entrant into that location, then you'll pay a little bit more as well, knowing you're going to then sweep up then you. Then you have to work harder on the multiples, not necessarily you won't want them to be paying the same all the time. You know so it's horses for courses really what your business is and what sector.
Speaker 3:We've all seen the heydays of tech, the heydays of medical, being in favor and lesser favor generalist recruitment business. The more niche you are, the more, the more you can command the thing. And then it's about how solid is your business behind it? What's supporting that? What? How you know you're paying a multiple of eight, eight years, a long time. How secure are your contracts? How secure are the people who are going to work there? You can't ask for eight if they're all going to walk out the door on us. You know that's not right. So yeah, I don't know if that's given you any indication. Sorry to be a little bit woolly, but hopefully I've demonstrated maybe the bands and matrix of where you would pitch.
Speaker 2:No, that's great, I think. I think you, you, you summed it up well. There are a lot of variables that come into play and, uh, yeah, it depends unfortunately, that's all we've got time for jed.
Speaker 1:I just want to say a huge thank you for um your time today. It's been really interesting. On behalf of everyone in the room, thank you very, very much for your time.
Speaker 3:Thanks so much yeah, yeah, it's been my pleasure. On behalf of everyone in the room, thank you very, very much for your time. Thanks so much. Yeah, it's been my pleasure, and thank you to everyone in the room for listening and good luck. You do a great job out there and if ever, I'm out. If you ever want to hook up, love to chat. But thanks for the opportunity to talk. I hope it didn't bore anyone.
Speaker 1:Not at all. Have a good day.
Speaker 3:Thank you. You too, good luck with the quiz.
Speaker 1:Thanks. I just want to say thank you to Paul as well for his time today and his input in this session. We are hoping that we've recorded that one so it will be released on our Dealmakers podcast as well. Give us a week or two to get that going. So thank you, Paul.
Speaker 2:No thanks, lesley. Thanks for the opportunity.